we're approaching the top of the hour and i'm at the end of my time but kendis gibson has a great big show. >> yes, we do. good day. i'm kendis gibson here at nbc headquarters in new york. and it is a holiday weekend. if you thought the president was taking time off twitter, he's not. this morning he ramped up the no collusion, no obstruction tweets and even a video. but have americans had enough. the new poll numbers released after the mueller report with the president's approval numbers taking a big hit. how low can he go? well it is the lowest he's been all year long. and in the meantime democrats have issued a subpoena for the unredacted version of the report. their end game may be blurred.

to impeach or not to impeach and it has drawn a fissure between the party. and joe biden's return to ready to run. details on his big announcement to take back the white house. but first, president trump wrapping up a round of golf in the sunshine state but the mueller report is hanging over him like a dark cloud. believing he's the best messenger in the white house he was on twitter this morning leaning on familiar phrases like no collusion, witch hunt, attacking the findings. at the same time democrats are now taking on sides on whether to impeach or let the political process play out. house speaker nancy pelosi is leading the effort to tamp down the cries from senator elizabeth warren and others like her who want the president to face the ultimate decision. >> this is about a point of principle. i get it. there are people who think politically, no, it is going to be too hard to do this. this isn't about politics. this is an even specifically

about donald trump himself, it is about what a president of the united states should be able to do and what the role of congress is. >> well trump is facing backlash within his own party as one prominent republican said he's sickened by what he's seen in the report. mitt romney there. and all of this follows jerry nadler demanding bill barr hand over the complete unredacted mueller report by may 1st in a new subpoena to the justice department. nadler is also asking the special counsel to testify before congress by may 23rd. let's get started now. msnbc mike mccara has been following the story from the white house and beautiful day in d.c. and in mar-a-lago where the president is. and his team made a new video to attack the mueller report. what is the mood at the white house and within the administration. >> reporter: let's start with the golfing outing. it is unusual that the white

house would release any pictures they usually deny he's golfing at all but the fact he's with rush limbaugh, a key backer and millions of listeners backing president trump, the white house decided to publicize the pictures of the president golfing at mar-a-lago with rush limbaugh. otherwise the white house is in denial, all over the map. they say that the mueller report vindicates the president and exonerates the president and, yet, the president in tweets that you've mentioned, still calling them angry democrats and including bob mueller, without any foundation at all. saying it was a big waste of time. attacking bob mueller, a man he once called honorable. that video that you mentioned, very quickly, put together a bite-size little social media video. 18 angry democrats, zero collusion, zero obstruction. again, the president saying he's been vindicated and exonerated. but bob mueller said he didn't say there was no collusion. he said there was no conspiracy. and important legal distinction.

and the campaign, though there was no conspiracy or no obstruction, bob mueller made it very clear that the campaign expected to benefit from what russia was doing. kendis. >> if use vindicated and exonerated, why are you attacking the mueller report right there. in the meantime, the justice department, are they responding to the nadler request as of yet. >> reporter: they are. you mentioned that jerry nadler, the chairman and democratic chairman demanding the unredacted documents. hogan gidley said we give him everything and he will want more and more. the justice department itself put out a statement, i think we have a full screen. congressman nadler's subpoena is premature and unnecessary. the department will continue to work with congress to accommodate its legitimate requests, consistent with the law and long recognized executive branch interest. and in other words, they're going to try to avoid answering the subpoenas or complying with the subpoenas as best they can,

kendis. >> we'll see how it plays out in the next few weeks. thanks to mike mccara there at the white house. for more, let's bring in cynthia osnick and julia manchester reporting for the hill and ben wittes from law fair, including a podcast which was good this week. >> thank you. >> and nbc law analyst. welcome to all of you. and let me start with you, ben, how could congress successfully obtain this complete report? >> well, i think it very likely can't. because -- some of the redactions, most of the redactions are matters that they can negotiate about and the executive can kind of provide the underlying material to congress without -- as long as it doesn't become public. the grand jury material, it is not lawful for the executive to provide to outside of the justice department except under very limited circumstances, so i

think if that is -- if congress really wants to plant the flag on that stuff and it is very small number of redactions, actually, but if they want to plant the flag on that, that is a long fight and it is not one that i'm confident they will win. >> it is a surprisingly light bunch of redactions there in the report itself. and julia barr has offered to testify before the house and senate judiciary committees may 1st and 2nd but do you think now they will be more focused on going -- getting mueller or before the house panel by may 23rd? >> it is interesting, kendis, i think they're going to be focused on both of these figures. i think obviously mule -- mueller is a figure to get more details from the report and get more of his thinking on that issue of obstruction, however it is interesting, you hear a lot of democrats on the hill talking about impeachment. however there is another camp, more establishment democrats such as nancy pelosi and steny hoyer that democratic leadership

who are actually very much setting the stage for a battle with attorney general barr and essentially trying to attack him and maybe use that was away to attack him instead of directly attacking the president ahead of the 2020 election. i think the democratic leadership realizes they need to be careful about the issue of impeachment right now because that is just not an issue that most voters necessarily care about and the mueller report isn't even something they necessarily care about. however going through -- bringing the attorney general off to open up more of a broad issue -- more broad issues they could question him on and pinprick him on if you will. >> and cynthia, in the meantime, i'm curious, as a federal prosecutor among the bunch here, do you think, after going through the report, that you could have prosecuted a case out of this? >> the obstruction side, yes. absolutely. the obstruction section, the volume two is essentially a prosecution memo. and it is clear that bob

mueller, to me, thought there were many aspects that could be prosecuted in the obstruction, but for the memo from the department of justice that said you can't indict a sitting president. on the issue of barr testifying, i have to say -- i'm not so much interested in barr, although i think he should testify. but what about the underlying witnesses. let's hear from mccabe directly and how the president was trying to get him to fire mueller and exactly what happened in the meetings and get the notes and the underlying facts out in front of the american people. >> and ben, in the meantime, the mueller report are given some 30-plus redactions in the pages there, as you mentioned. what sort of information could he disclose in the congressional testimony on may 23rd, if he's there? >> so i think the most important thing he could disclose would be actually not factual. it would be information about his thinking and the way he analyzed

certain things. so most importantly, you know, the attorney general described him as having sort of declined to or been unable to reach a traditional prosecutorial judgment but not deferring to congress in its impeachment authority and declining to do so. the report reads to me, and to a lot of people very differently from that. and i would actually like to hear from mueller about what he intended when he did not reach a prosecutorial judgment and why he wrote that really interesting passage about not wanting to preempt the constitutional processes by which the legislature evaluated claims of presidential misconduct. >> so we have the report. julia, let's talk about the political ramifications of all of this now. because it shows that 65% -- a

recent poll that you showed, 65% say that the investigation is hurting the country. where do you think the american people are on all of this right now? >> you know, i think the american people definitely wanted the report to be released in full as much as it possibly could. i think they thought transparency was very important in that regard. however, i think at the same time the american people think that this is kind of the end of a chapter and they would like to move on. this investigation has very much divided the american electorate and created even more of a partisan environment then there already is and going into a 2020 campaign they'll want to focus on kitchen table issues such as health care and the economy. and it is interesting with the exception of elizabeth warren, you're seeing most of the 2020 candidates really focusing on those issues. i think elizabeth warren poif -- pivot to impeachment is a way to stick out from the crop but the majority of americans would like to focus on issues that impact

them every day, that is not to say that the mueller report isn't important and it doesn't impact the american electoral process and their political life, however i think democrats need to walk a very fine line on how much they need to -- they want to pursue this. >> and as you know, nance has a leadership call planned for monday in which they discuss the next steps. and with that in mind, cynthia, give me a sense of the impeachment process if they decide to go that route? >> well, if they decide to go that route, the whole world will blow up. and they'll start calling witnesses. but there is a middle route and that is to get the information out, call the underlying witnesses, and there is also a lot of big question marks that the report doesn't deal with that we could learn about. for example, there is no discussion in the report about the cambridge analytic and what happened with the data they had and was that used and what was the russian relationship with that and was that used in the

swing states. there is a lot of information they could learn in a fact-finding way which doesn't have to up the game into impeachment. as a prosecutor and as a legal person, what i'm interested in is getting out all of the facts. that is what i know about. the political decision that nancy pelosi has to make is a very different one and it has to do with where does she want to spend her political capital and where does she want people to focus on up in the election. she's good at figuring that out and i would defer to her on that. >> she has big decisions to make indeed. thanks to the leadoff panel. thank you. cynthia and ben are staying with us. julia, thank you for your time on this saturday. still ahead, your fired. did the trump campaign just retaliate against don mcgahn by parting ways with his own law firm. and how the former white house counsel is clapping back at rudy giuliani for attacking his credibility. king his credibility. hey allergy muddlers... achoo! do your sneezes turn heads? ♪

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even if it is true, it is not. those aren't, like, real orders. i'll tell you, when he wants to fire somebody, ask james comey if he could fire somebody. yes, he ruminated and got angry and upset but after a while you realize these messages were never delivered. there is a pattern there and the pattern is he didn't mean them to be delivered. >> and so that is what it is about. ruminating. rudy giuliani attempting to minimize the reports in the mueller report and prompting the former white house counsel don mcgahn to break his silence.

a lawyer for don mcgahn said it is a mystery why rudy giuliani feels the need to relitigate concluded were not obstruction. but their accurately described in the report. as part of mtestimony before th mueller team he said the president directed him to have the special counsel fired but don mcgahn did not follow through on that. and pottico reporting that the trump campaign has removed don mcgahn law firm from the 2020 re-election bid within the last 48 hours, by the way. cynthia is back with me and ben wittes. thank you for being back with me. let's start with rudy giuliani comments seemed to ignite the don mcgahn camp. another credit by trump to discredit the mueller findings, cynthia? >> of course. of course it is. but i bet you the people at jones day where don mcgahn are happy, they don't want to work

for the white house right now. why would you want to do that? the guy lies to you all of the time and he asks you to do crazy illegal things. don mcgahn who worked at jones day, not to make this a jones day ad, and never worked there and i think ben gwynnsberg, he is the only person -- he behaved beautifully and said to the president, no, you may not violate the law. no, i will not do that. he threatened to quit. he controlled the president's outrageous unpate re ottic -- unpee re ottic and unconstitutional behavior. >> and i believe porter in some aspects is coming out here as the bad guy out of this at least as far as the white house is concerned. >> well, i think the answer to that is that they are reported in the document to have been to

some extent important respects guard rails against orders that would have been improper at a minimum and illegal perhaps as well. and the report is just rep pleat with examples of the president giving these wildly inappropriate orders for things to happen and people slow walking them or ignoring them or in some cases refusing altogether and those incidents are enormously unflattering to the white house and the president himself and the easiest way to deal with that is to raise credibility questions about everybody who was engaged in that activity. and so all of these people who severed the president in some cases under extremely difficult circumstances and quite loyally and by the way i would add much too loyally become liars and sort of rats because they

cooperated with the special counsel office, which, by the way, they had no choice but to do given that the president had waived executive privilege and the investigation was lawfully constituted and they were obliged to cooperate and they did. so they told these outrageous stories that are presumably all true. and now the white house has no play other than to sort of raise questions about the credibility. >> and if you recall early on in the investigation, the white house and counsel did tell the folks to cooperate with the investigation. but mcgahn wasn't the only person to say no to the president. you had cory lewandowski who was trying to fire jeff sessions, reince priebus who was supposed to get the firing of sessions and didn't and hope hicks as well. there are a lot of no people in the white house behind the scenes when the president has done this sort of stuff. but mcgahn, according to the report by the way, said here, the president tried to have don mcgahn deny that he tried to

remove mueller. mcgahn refused to do that. how much weight would you say after all of that does don mcgahn's new statement carry in the report, cynthia? >> i think it carries a lot. he seems credible as you read through the part. my favorite part is he refused to do what the president wanted and the president got him angry that he was taking notes. i've never had a lawyer take notes. and real lawyers take notes. he said. >> that it is a good idea to keep a record. whole sequence between the two really rings true and gives you a feel you could almost be in the room with them the way it is written. i think mcgahn if reading the report a couple of times has a lot of credibility and that is why the president is so upset about him. >> stephanie ruhle pointed out that the notepads, there is a reason they are called legal notepads. because lawyers do take notes.

go ahead, ben. >> could i add to that, when james comey came forward and told his story about the interactions with the president, the white house went on a kind of blitzkrieg of allegations that he was lying and that his credibility was at issue and his credibility was very much resolved in this report. the special counsel's office makes a point of noting that he was credible, that his allegations were corroborated by contemporaneous documentation and other witnesses. and so i mention that not for purposes of evaluating comey but for purposed evaluating the white house's per pencity to respond to truthful information by way of attacking people as non-credible when they are in fact telling the truth. and so i -- my enthusiasm for don mcgahn is certainly under control. but i see no reason to think he's doing anything other than telling the truth here. and by the way, the special

counsel's office appears to regard him as entirely credible as they did james comey. and so i think that is just worth keeping in mind. we know the white house lies about other people being liars and when those credibility assessments are made in this report, they are almost uniformally made on the side of the people who were making the allegations, not on the side of the people. >> but you do get a sense after meeting with don mcgahn with 30 hours and nine different meetings they got to know him very well which is why they might think he is very credible as a witness. cynthia and ben, thank you. still ahead, joe's gonna jump. when the former vice president is expected to announce the run for 2020. plus the court of public opinion weighs in on the mueller report. does it change the game for 2020? we're live on the campaign trail next.

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i don't think any of it does. i just think the american people have made up their mind with everything that has come out before. >> that they haven't found anything, it would be great if we just quit looking and start

moving on because we have other matters. >> if this is the last day we in the media are talking about bob mueller, would that be all right with y'all? >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> what are we supposed to do now, then? so after two years of speculation and anticipation and big expectations, the mueller report was finally released. as you could see from the reaction there, many americans are saying that don't impress me much. or are they saying keep on moving, don't stop. no, our road warriors are on the ground talking to people across the country. von hilliard is one of those and joins us live from holly hill, south carolina, near an event for senator kamala harris and she punted when it came to her reaction to the mueller report. >> reporter: yeah, kendis, kamala harris is here going to be here in holly hill, south carolina, just on the road from where we are speaking to some congregants at a local church. but she wants to hear from

robert mueller herself before going on to suggest like elizabeth warren did impeachment. but that sound that you played there, kendis, is what we've heard in terms of bipartisan across the board democrats and republicans, is we want focus on the issues. and these town hall events for kamala harris, for elizabeth warren and cory booker, the questions you hear from folks are about infrastructure and health care and education. yet, at the same time, what you continue to here and what you heard in -- on the president's twitter feed and from the president himself is a defiance toward the mueller report and that seemingly 18 months from the general election we are still stuck with the two sides. and i want to introduce you to the randolph family here in holly hills and this is their -- they let us drop by for their family fish fry here. and i want to introduce us to one gentleman, ron in particular, because the question for you, we were having a conversation over what should go forward. where should we be? what was your takeaway from the mueller report? >> well, i think he did what he

was supposed to do in his job. he had a scope that he had to work within. but the final decision he didn't get to make. i think he should have made a more definitive decision or to push the issue forward. i mean, it is almost like he had somebody else to do that. i did the work, but here, you decide. >> reporter: and barr made the decision and now where do you think this should go under consider that consideration, where should this go from here? >> well it shouldn't be barr's decision. it is not barr's job. so i think that congress should take it and decide what should really happen. i think we should know more. there is a lot of evidence and stuff out there. and in the average court or whatever, you know, things should play out, the judge should get all of the information and -- or the jury should get all of the information and then make a decision on it. >> this is ron. and kendis, what we've heard is similar to what ron said. folks that are not necessarily supportive of the president want

this to continue to go forward. because of what was in the 484-page report. but we were just in iowa there yesterday and included some of the sound there where you heard from some supporters of the president and they say that they've actually for the -- for the first time they are acknowledging that the reality that the president did work or encouraged to a certain extent potential obstruction of the investigation there, at the same time, what you consider to hear is the president is defiant and unwillingness to come to a reckoning of what the report found. you have this division here at a time in which democrats are looking to run for the presidency, setting up a contentious general election around this issue. >> and very surprising to see it is a topic at a fish fry in south carolina. von, i don't know if you know this, it is a big deal when a black family invites you to their cookout. >> reporter: we pulled up and they welcomed us.

we're going to walk away with a meal though, too. >> that is awesome. because they legitimize you, you're welcome to our cookout any time. thank you. >> reporter: thank you. >> von hilliard in south carolina who is blushing probably at this point. you just heard fr-- from voters there and after a report 54% of voters thought congress should move on. yet the mueller report itself is now a best-seller according to amazon sales. i want to bring in daniel moody mills host on sirius xm and evan seigfried, republican strategist. welcome to you. to be honest, you would never want to go to a cookout i'm cooking because you wouldn't want to eat anything i'm putting out there. >> oh, dear god. >> but danielle, how do you reconcile the whole mueller fatigue with mueller interest. >> i think the reality is the american people should expect more from their president.

we should expect more from the office. and i think this is -- did not exonerate the president. there are a lot of unanswered questions and what we know to be true is that he's completely deceitful and his administration is full of liars and after 22 months we have 34 indictments, seven people sentenced and going to jail. three companies indicted and so while i think that the american people, sure, they would like to move on, but the reality is that if we don't deal with this right now, we are going to set ourselves up for a president that could actually be worse, imagine that. someone that could actually be worse than what we have right now. >> and you were saying the big issue isn't 2020, it is these 18 months. >> yeah. i think that for me i was very excited about 2020. i think that we, as democrats have an incredible field but right now i'm very focused on the white house. focused on the oval office. and whether or not our president is operating in the best interest of the american people or his self-interest and from what i've seen and read from the mueller report, doesn't seem

like he's the patriot that he claims to be. >> evan, let's talk about the long-lasting impact from this. now the president has taken a hit. we have the new reuters poll that shows his approval ratings has dropped to 37%. the lowest all year long. so what impact could this have long-term? >> not really much of one. i think when we talk about 2020, we're going to see voters carrying about the issues. when you look at polling, poll after poll shows that the majority of the american people, high 50 toss low 60s, say the country is on the wrong track or they want to be able to afford to live and talk about taxes or health care and the economy and those are the important issues. they are not saying they are voting based on the the mueller report or what the president did or didn't do in russia, but they care about the issues and that is why many of the 2020 candidates are talking about the issues and trying to move past and be a contrast to president trump and his style of behavior. we know that donald trump lies. we know he tried to interfere in

the russia investigation, the mueller -- but voters carry about pocket book issues as well. >> that is crazy that that is where the bar is. >> the bar is so -- and evan is right. the bar is so incredibly low. agree in the fact that americans do believe the country is on the wrong path and do want a president, somebody that is going to care about their day-to-day lives. right. and not somebody cronies with the russia or going to give tax breaks to the uber rich and left the rest of the americans behind. but i still think that we should have a higher bar for the president of the united states. >> and that is up to the voters to establish and they chose donald trump because of the electoral college and hillary clinton was able to -- >> and with putin -- >> how would putin have done it. he didn't change any vote tallies. if you look at it from a digital per spect spiff it was an incompetent attempt but -- >> so innocent basis on confidence -- >> so as i povot. is biden the higher call?

[ laughter ] >> yes. >> i think that -- look i -- >> what is that about? he's leading the polls 27%. sanders is at 16%. he's way up on top. >> i've said this all week on sirius xm all week, i don't care who gets the democratic nomination at this point. i would vote for kermit the frog if he is polling high and can be beat, that is what i care about. but joe biden, i would like to see some fresh blood. i'd like to see somebody new. would you like to see somebody that has more progressive policies than he has. but if he turns out to be the nominee and thin then i will walk on the doors and give him as much money as i can and then -- >> and kermit the frog has been it at for 50 years. >> he has a lot of track history and opposition research to be done. and he never put a ring on miss piggy. come on. but i look at joe biden from a

purely objective point of view. i think he is the strongest candidate the democrats have. think of it this way, what -- everybody, be they republican in the 2016 debate or hillary clinton in the 2016 general election debates, they tried to land a glove on donald trump and while their base liked it, it didn't work. joe biden has the unique ability to basically turn to donald trump and have that reagan -- aw-shucks, there you go. and see, american people, we've had four years of this bomb bast, aren't you tired of the drama and decency and shrug it off and move on to substantive things people care about. joe biden could speak to different constituentsies many are angling to get. >> do you thinks hat best shot of beating trump. >> i think a buttigieg -- would be formidable -- >> it would be formidible to pronounce.

>> buttigieg. >> be square. dm square, thank you. and thank you for your time on this saturday. still ahead, defying orders. how thein subordination of white house staffers may have saved the president from obstruction charges. and how sa-- how sarah sands is defending the alternative facts she gave at the white house podium. facts she gave at the white house podium when heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums smoothies. it neutralizes stomach acid at the source. ♪tum tum tum tum smoothies. also available tums sugar-free.

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intrigue inside of the white house behind the scenes in the oval office that is really raising eyebrows. now mueller writes, 11 senior white house officials refused to carry out president trump's orders that they felt were problematic or outright illegal. it didn't take long for trump to fire back in a string of tweets using profane language and claiming that the statements in the redacted document are fabricated and untrue. but surprisingly the white house staffers who ignored the president may have shielded him from obstruction of justice charges. so joining me now is anna mary macavoy and prosecutor from columbia school of international and public affairs and roslyn helderman, a political investigative reporter at "the washington post." welcome to you both. andrea, let me start with you. because it sounds like aides not listening to the president sort of worked out in his benefit, didn't it? >> well it certainly, from what the way that the report -- said it did.

and it assumes that that kept it from happening. but there ares two sides to that. the other issue is that he could have fired thoses -- those aids for insubordination and brought somebody else in to carry out his orders and he didn't. so certainly there was an initial intent but no follow-through and he could have done it in various ways. >> so perhaps he knew that it might not necessarily be -- >> it could have been initial response and maybe he thought better tv. >> roslyn, to you, because i want to read part of the report which states the president's efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful. but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the president declined to carry out orders or cede to his request. how big of a constitutional crisis would it have been if they went through with the president's orders? >> well you could see varous points in the report where we learn about moments where the

president's staff themselves consider the possibility of a constitution crisis that they were grappling with that issue. most notably where the president orders white house counsel don mcgahn to effectuate the firing of the special counsel himself and don mcgahn apparently felt as though this would initiate a saturday night massacre, those were his words straight out of watergate. and so he declined to do that. he was prepared to resign instead. but mueller sort of grapples with this issue as anmary was talking about, this is a president with heated orders and then kind of fades with time if his staff doesn't follow through as don mcgahn did not in that instance. >> and they did mention that the president and many of the white house staffers were on pins and needles all week long ahead of the mueller report because they know, a lot people met with mueller and the investigative team for hours and hours. do you get a sense there is a bitle retaliation taking place.

we mentioned that don mcgahn's company is fired from the trump 2020 campaign. >> certainly if there are things in there that trump wasn't happy to read about what people said, it is going to certainly at the very least make things awkward. it is not a surprise that he's not comfortable having don mcgahn involved at this point given that i'm sure he wasn't happy with what was written in the report about what mcgahn had to say. it adds to the environment of stress i'm sure within the white house itself, for the people involved. although, quite a few of them have moved on or may not -- they're sort of tangentially involved so it probably doesn't have as much of an impact as this came out sooner while they were still there at the white house. >> it did seem as if sarah sanders was honest during her briefing with federal prosecutors about lying. roslyn, you have sarah sanders admitting she lied to reporters about fbi staffers losing confidence in former fbi director james comey. give me a sense of where her

credible level lies. it has been week since she's done a press conference so where is she right now? >> that is a striking moment where she straight up said that she told the press and not just the press but the american people that countless fbi agents asked for the firing of james comey and then acknowledged under oath she had no basis for that claim. she's been trying to walk that back since the report came out. to sort of say her issue was saying countless and there were some. but throughout the report you get this striking, really vivid portrait painted of moment after moment where the president has lied to the public and where he's commanding, demanding that his staff sort of craft false stories to back up his false stories. and in some instances they refuse but unfortunately in other instances, they did not. >> anmary and roslyn, thank you. ahead, what about russia.

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elections as an opportunity to advance their interests. we expect them to refine their capabilities and add new tactics as they learn from each other's experiences and efforts in previous elections. >> the threat to our democrat continues to grow. that was the director of national intelligence dan coats warning that foreign interference in 2020 will only be more sophisticated. and now the fbi and other intelligence agencies are in the midst of trying to thwart russian manipulation of the upcoming election, according to officials speaking to nbc news. in the meantime current and former u.s. officials say the fbi is continuing to assess and counter russian efforts to influence the trump administration. for more on this, i want to bring in my panel now, -- former unusual security analyst ned price and reporter for washington

zepetowsxi. and ned, i want to start with you. we learned so much in the last months about the counterintelligence probe being launched two years ago and then we get the report, the mueller report just two days ago, what could we glean on where the counterintelligence probe is based on the mueller report? >> well, that is the most interesting part, kendis and the answer to your question is not much. there is very little in the actual mueller report that alludes to this counterintelligence probe. but it is in some ways explicitly missing from the mueller report. it is not just missing, it is not just implied they left it out, it is explicit in the sense that the final report makes reference to the fact that for the better part of the last year, the fbi had imbedded counterintelligence specialists who took the findings of the mueller team, what the prosecutors and what the fbi agents working on the mueller probe, what they had gleaned from a counterintelligence, national security intelligence

and memorialized that and put that in writing for fbi headquarters and field offices. it was ultimately in mueller's report states this, left out of the mueller report. but we can assume the counterintelligence probe is ongoing. counterintelligence probes are different from law enforcement in they often don't end. law enforcement probes end in charges or declination of charges. we have every reason to expect this counterintelligence probe on the other hand remains ongoing. >> and if it is ongoing, could it be part of one of those -- or dozen or so redactions based on on going reporting, matt? >> well we don't know that. we don't know that. but we do know that mueller was sort of constantly kicking out information to the fbi so they could kind of use it in their ongoing mission. ned makes a great point. a counterintelligence probe isn't really exactly like mueller's probe. it is not like they are going to at the end of the day put together a 400-page report and

just air out what russia is doing or plans to do. they work in secret and try to thwart what russia is doing. so there could be material behind some of the redactions, some of the redactions are for intelligence sources and methods that would be potentially the fbi counterintelligence mission. but we know in the report that mueller kicked information back to the fbi and their work is just going to -- just sort of continue on even though mueller is not done. >> and how far behind the ball do you think we are in order to try to protect the 2020 presidential election from russian interference or is it too late aat this point? >> there is a lot of work to do. we know that. you played the clip from coats 2019 testimony before congress. he made the same points in 2018 in his written report that he submitted earlier this week, makes the same point as in fact more expansive and russia almost certainly is going to try some of the same tactics that they also may up the game a bit. even resorting to tactics like

data manipulation toin fu -- to infuse uncertainty or tensions within our society as they did in 2016. now i don't want to suggest that we've done nothing to fortify our system. there has been some good work ongoing, matt's own paper some months ago reported that the national security agency and cyber com were taking operations to deterred the russians ahead of the midterms. but the fact of the matter is there is not a demand signal from the commander-in-chief or president trump that we have to make this a priority and in light of that we've seen dhs and other entities downsize the election protection efforts. >> matt, let me get you to weigh in. should we be waving a red flag now. you cover russian interference a bit. what is going on now? >> absolutely. even beyond mueller, there were charges for a russian woman for some meddling in the 2018 election. so things are ongoing right now. i think we should step back and

sort of reflect on the mueller report. this is such an important read and there is a public component to this. one of the things that russia did was influence american voters by kind of disguised social media accounts and the mueller report lays out this out in immense detail. this is online and publishing as a book and will understand and show what russia is trying to do. >> it will be a read and the scariest things we have read in some years. thank you. still ahead, what will nancy do? she said he wasn't worth it. but now that the mueller report is out, will nancy pelosi change her mind about impeaching donald trump? impeaching donald trump?

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and good afternoon, i'm kendis gibson live from nbc headquarters in new york. handle with care. democrats have ramped up efforts to see the complete mueller report. what is their next move? now that robert mueller has passed the torch, will congress move forward with impeachment or shift their focus to beating trump in 2020. plus by the dozen. the special counsel work may be done but he referred 14 criminal cases to other prosecutors. and only two have been made public. the mystery surrounding the other 12 investigations and friends with benefits. we know that russia interfered in the 2016 presidential elections and favored president trump as a candidate and bernie sanders as well, so what is

being done to stop a repeat of all of this? we begin with the growing divide among democrats as more 2020 presidential contenders call for president trump's impeachment. senator elizabeth warren was the first to urge congress to launch an impeachment proceeding against president trump since the redacted version came out. and now julian castro also wants trump to be removed from office. but speaker nancy pelosi is pumping the brakes even though congress was given a road map for impeachment and at the same time the white house is warning that subpoenas are coming. >> we need the entire report unredacted and the underlying documents to make informed decisions. >> basically that volume two reads like a prosecutorial charging document. he lists ten different instances where he found evidence of criminal conduct. of obstruction of justice. subpoenas are coming. >> the subpoenas are coming. so it is all coming as attorney

general bill barr is fighting house judiciary chairman jerry nadler subpoena for the complete mueller report by may 1st. nbc's mike viqueira is covering the battle for the complete report at the white house. mike? >> reporter: well, kendis, good afternoon to you. and it seems as though there is a divide here as you point out between presidential candidates and the democratic side and congressional leadership on whether to move forward with impeachment, two sort of dueling motivations or goals. the presidential candidates think it is a key issue for the base and the congressional leadership wants to build up the pressure and keep the investigations going until the election just 18 months away if you could believe that. but when it comes to fulfilling the subpoenas, the grand jury unredacted testimony part of the mueller report that was redacted an the top leadership, democrat or republican, would not be able to see that under any circumstances. that is what jerry nadler the chairman -- the judiciary committee wants to see from the

administration. the administration digging in their heels. there is some legitimate question as to whether or not that grand jury testimony can be legally shared. mean while, white house white house spokesperson hogan gidley had this response to the question. >> whether does this stop. if we gave them the unredacted report and tax returns, he woo still want something else. we're not going to deal with jerry nadler in that manner. we've already cooperated so much with the house democrats and we'll continue to do so. but the fact is this is just more political grandstanding. >> okay, so political grandstanding on both sides. interesting that hogan gidley said that we are not going to give him the unredacted report, and talking about jerry nadler, that is not the white house to give that is under the auspice of the department of justice. >> and things look calm at the white house but heated stuff behind the scenes now. and speaking of that, we want to get to breaking news

from "the new york times." the reporter reporting that mueller witnesses who once served in the white house now fear trump's ire. joining me now by phone is "new york times" washington correspondent michael schmidt and also an msnbc national security contributor. and you learned that the president has not even looked at the mueller report yet? >> well, he has not read the report. he has been briefed on it. and he's being told about it by his advisers. and he's particularly bothered by the statements in the report from don mcgahn, his former white house counsel who laid out in detail to the special counsel's office different instances in which the president tried to impede the investigation. now don mcgahn cooperated, we have to remember, with mueller investigation because the president encouraged him to do that. mcgahn was told to go and meet

with the special counsel's office, the president and his lawyers were trying to hasten the end of the investigation by cooperating. they thought they could bring an end to it but the president doesn't like some of the things he sees in this report and we saw some of this beginning to bubble up yesterday with the president's lawyer rudy giuliani going after mcgahn and saying that the recollection of important episodes in the report were not accurate. >> and michael, you're learning more about the growing tension between the white house, the president and former white house counsel don mcgahn as you mentioned but i also took note from reporting that the president is not too happy about rob porter former staff secretary as well. >> well, the thing about the report is that there are account after account from the people closest to the president, the people who are seen as the most loyal to him giving up details, some of them embarrassing and some of them potentially

demonstrating obstruction of justice that don't look great. this document doesn't look great, the president realized and realizes that he may have a political problem on his hands. and he does not like that. and he's lashing out and giuliani in response is giving to sort of beat the drum against the report. so instead of taking a victory lap and saying, oh, great, the attorney general has cleared the president of any wrongdoing, what has gone on is they are now going after different parts of the report. >> and finally who are the four witnesses that are fearing trump the most? >> um, well, we don't say any story -- who the four witnesses are. which witnesses are fearing the president the most. there is a general sense among the witnesses that the president at the time -- at the drop of a dime could tweet something about these people and attack them. and many of them have built

their post-government life around being trump surrogates or trump associates and having the appearance of access to the president. >> michael schmidt of the "new york times," washington correspondent there with the very latest and the sort of fallout that is taking place after the mueller report. talk about fire and fury, apparently it is taking place behind the scenes. let's talk with carol ann and katie benner as well, reporter covering the justice department for "the new york times." there is the team. and danny cevallos, nbc legal analyst. thank you all. busy afternoon. 48 hours after the release of the mueller report. katie, i'll start with you, because in your new piece for "the new york times," you report that a darker portrait has emerged of trump's attacks on the justice department. what information are you learning? >> sure of course. i think one of the big surprises in reading the mueller report is the attacks on the justice

department so many happened in public and so much was the president tweeting about jeff sessions, criticizing him publicly threatening to remove him and saying he wish he had somebody else and it was surprising to see that behind the scenes the president was doing things even more surprising. he was secretly plotting with rob porter to figure out whether or not they could replace jeff sessions with rachel brand and a few months later she left for a job at walmart and while she claimed she couldn't pass up such a great opportunity the report makes clear she and rod rosenstein had threatened to quit if jeff sessions were to be removed. we're seeing attacks on the justice department on rod rosenstein and he said he will quit and not lie and while all of this is going on, officials like rod rosenstein is saying glowing things about the president and there is no attack on the rule of law happening. >> dani, i want to ask you about volume two itself because you

say the special counsel and barr have a different position when it comes to what took place there in the volume 2 of this. the obstruction of justice part. explain. >> they both reach no obstruction but in very different paths. mueller have the outset concluded that no lc opinion prevented an indictment of the president and everything after that moment became really just a amassing facts and collecting them for somebody else to make a final decision on and that somebody else could be a.g. barr, it could be also congress. on the other hand, barr appears, at least, to have taken that information, that data, and made his own conclusion as to the substantive value of the evidence that it didn't reach the level of obstruction. because doj policy is simply because you may have probable cause, that is only a threshold inquiry. even though that will get you an indictment, doj policy requires more. they need to be able to prove their case and believe they could prove their case before they bring it.

so very stark -- apparently stark differences in their approach to the obstruction question. but strangely, they reach in a way the same result. >> and carol, picking up on where denny is leaving off because the mueller report does foreshadow obstruction of justice charges against trump but does it suggest that -- and leave a road map there for once trump leaves office so that he could charge him with that or does mueller punt to the issue of congress? >> no, he doesn't punt completely to congress. and, yes, he does suggest that there are other remedies including after the president leaves office. i actually in concept have no problem with the attorney gem having made a decision that the department of justice is not going to bring charges against the president. somebody has to make that decision and in this case with the special counsel having declined to do that, i do think it lies to the attorney general because congress cannot bring

criminal charges by itself. it has to rely on the justice department to do that. but i agree with denny, the spin and emphasis he put on it was almost putting words in the special counsel's moum that -- the special counsel's mouth that he did not said himself and it did suggest that there was more emphasis on not being enough evidence as opposed to not bringing charges because he was the president and had another job to do and the office of legal counsel had recommended or said you can't indict a sitting president. >> and katie, in the meantime, curious to get your take on the colleague michael schmidt's reporting today. what do you make of the reporting that the president -- and there are many people within the white house or former white house officials who are fearful as -- of the sort of retaliation they might get from this president and the administration. >> i mean, i don't think it is any surprise for anybody who has read the mueller report, you could see this is a white house that for the first two years was ruled by fear, ruled by fear of

a president who is completely governed by his emotions and largely very unpredictable. people are often afraid of retaliation. he's asking them to lie. and they didn't feel like they could say no and so they didn't do what he asked and never told him and hoped they wouldn't get in trouble and to it see their testimony in black and white in this report i'm sure they are very, very worried. donald trump doesn't need to report or absorb it and look for the nuances to feel betrayed and want to lash out. >> and katie, in the meantime, there are people -- or carol, who are already beating the drum for impeachment based on the obstruction of justice charges. similar question to the last one, did he leave a good road map when it comes to impeachment based on obstruction of justice? >> no, i think he did. i think the facts are all there and if congress decides it wants to move forward with impeachment, i think the facts are there. there was not as much redacted in the obstruction section as

there was in the russian section. and i think that is largely because the special counsel relied on fbi reports as opposed to grand jury testimony. >> thanks to carol and denny and katie benner thank you for spending your saturday with me. still ahead. >> the ongoing martes -- matters and other referrals passed on to prosecutors. ters and other referrals passed on to prosecutors. e alert if we find your social security number on the dark web. good, cuz i'm a little worried about my information getting out. oh, why's that? [bird speaking] my social security number is... 8- 7- 5 dash okay, i see. [bird laughing] is that your daughter? no, it's a macaw. and his name is timothy. timmy, want a cracker? timmy, do you want a cracker? [bird speaking] what do you think, kevin? no. sign up online for free. discover social security alerts.

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so the mueller investigation ended but trump is out from under the microscope. there were 14 referrals outside of the scope of the investigation into allegations of collusion and obstruction, of course, that is what he was doing. among those referred for criminal investigations were trump's former fixer, michael cohen, and former white house counsel under president obama greg craig. that means there is still 12 investigations out there. however, information on the referrals were redacted for potential harm to the ongoing matter. joining me now is sadie german, justice department reporter at the "wall street journal" and katie barlow and attorney and co-host of the podcast "words matter." welcome to you both. katie, let me start with you. many thought the mueller report was the end of it, the plot literally thickens when we kindch find out that there were these 12 cases that you can't quite see behind the redaction. what could those be? >> the first place you look at

what is missing is what is there. as you said, we could see from the report that michael cohen was one of those cases and we know from sadie's colleagues at the "wall street journal" and they just won a pulitzer for the hush money payments, a good place to look is the recent reporting. including what sadie's colleagues did at the "wall street journal" a couple of months ago about subpoenas from the southern district of new york and from the state in d.c. to trump's inaugural committee. and that we know that rick gates, who cooperated with robert mueller and was paul manafort's deputy was in charge of the committee. that case is a good example. >> and sadie to pick up on that, you have done extensive reporting and what did you glean from the redactions? what did they tell you. >> the one thing that is noteworthy is they are in alphabetical order so it is a fun guessing game here in washington who those might be. but like you said, they are entirely blacked out.

so we really can't say with any certainty what they are. mueller has previously said that one of the referrals is for sam patten from his lobbying work who has already pleaded guilty and then another case in the eastern district of virginia involving bejon kion and the lobby case. there is the criminal investigation into trump's inaugural committee spending. but your guess is as good as ours about the rest. >> and that is what people took a look at numbers and the -- the alphabet and tried to figure out -- tried to do the tea leaf reading on what might still be out there, i get the sense, katie. >> yes, that is absolutely right and what is next and what we could glean from the tea leaves and looking at process is a good way to do that. another key area for redistractions is grand jury material and it is mysterious what that means and not clear. but grand jury material is witness information and documents that are given to the

grand jury that we want to protect and is fiercely protected in our system because we want witnesses in front of the grand jury to be able to be forthcoming. and we want to protect the potentially innocent subjects of grand juries in case they decide not to indict a crime. and that information that was redacted is going to be at the center of what comes next. >> there were a lot of people saying that the southern district of new york was one that always posed the most danger to the president based on what came out of the mueller report, is that what you think as well. >> i think that is right and a fair analysis and what comes next is what further investigative steps they take for those 12 redacted cases. those are all referrals which is we think there is criminal information here, evidence of criminal activity and it is not necessarily guaranteed and it won't be an indictment. so to the extent that any of those were given to the southern district of new york, and we do have that evidence those were federal referral because the report said they were principally referred to the department of justice and the

fbi and the next step the southern district takes, we'll see whether or not they bring indictments. >> so saty, is this the beginning or the end for the president as far as his nightmare is concerned. >> well i think one thing is readily clear with the redaction and is that people in trump's orbit remain under scrutiny and as a consequence so will he. >> thank you both. well still ahead, crisis management. how a decision to fire his city first black police chief come back to haunt south bend mayor pete buttigieg. te buttigieg everyone's got to listen to mom. when it comes to reducing the sugar in your family's diet, coke, dr pepper and pepsi hear you. we're working together to do just that. bringing you more great tasting beverages with less sugar

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the faster we can get to stopping them. the most personal technology, is technology with the power to change your life. life. to the fullest. time for a roundup of other headlines across the country. vigils being held today to mark the 20th anniversary of the columbine high school massacre. 12 students and a teachers were killed when dylan klebold and eric harris opened fire on the campus. this news from hollywood, reporting that john singleton has been hospitalized after suffering a stroke. the two-time oscar director checked himself into a hospital after experiencing pain in his leg. singleton directed movies like "boys in the hood" and "too fast, too furious" and even

though it is free mueller report is at the top of the zahn and barnes and noble list of best-sellers. there is a rush to convert the government report into a book format, as 640-page paper back verpgs and supplement document and commentary is going for $9.20. >> and it is haerp 20th. you know what that means. several dispensaries in massachusetts are receiving -- dating back to 1971 where students would meet after school at 4:20 p.m. to smoke marijuana at a school statue. also i should mention that post mates mentioned they expect a 300% spike in burger orders today. wonder if there is any connection? munchies. okay. moving on. for months speculation has been float gs about former vice

president joe biden joining the race in 2020. well that answer is getting clearer. reports indicate that he's hiring staffers and possible announcement could come next week as early as wednesday. joining me now is tiffany cross, co-founder of the beat d.c. and noah rothman, associate editor of commentary magazine and msnbc contributor. welcome to you all. finally, it is all here. biden has given us a lot of teases, including this one. take a look. >> thank you, thank you. um, save it a little longer, i may need it in a few weeks. >> i'm the most progressive anybody running for -- of anybody who would run. [ cheering and applause ] >> he's been flirting with a run for quite a time. do we expect this to be the real thing. >> i think the reporting so far suggests he's jumping in and why wouldn't he be. why would you suggest yourself

to the kind of scrutiny that he's allowed him self-to deal unless he was running for the presidency. biden spent quite a few weeks apologizing for the record that he's had in government, the statements that he's made, the actions that he's taken and his personal conduct, not limited to his interactions with women. it is a humiliating experience for anybody. you don't do that sort of thing unless you are running for a high office. >> for the third time for him. it is irntding to look at, tiffany, these are candidates over the years. is it too late for joe? because in 2016, the first candidate to get in ted cruz, in march of 2015. well, over a year beforehand. hillary clinton was the first to get in in 2015. for the 2008 race, tom vilsack got in two year as head of time and didn't win and senator paul wellstone got in more than two years -- two and a half years

before he also did not run. so what does that kind of tell you about joe's timing here? >> well i will tell you, it tells me nothing. because this is all pre-trump america. all of the rules are gone. it is a new playbook. so i think we have to look at the current times for where we are now and i think there is a healthy amount of trump fatigue right now. i think voters are questioning their own values and looking forward to getting back to some sort of sense of normalcy in the country. i think obviously joe biden will run. i think a lot of us get kind of tired and exhausted of this game of will he or won't he and the exploratory committee and then the announcement, so look, we know joe biden will get in the race and i think that he -- i don't know that he's been on an apology tour like noah's said but i take his point. but he's celebrated the wins and accomplishments during the obama administration and i think there are people out there who -- he'swell received when you think

about the primaries and south carolina coming up and where he has deep roots and he's beloved in the state so he could shake up i think the docket once he officially launches the campaign. >> but tiffany, let me ask you this, because we ask questions when we learn about launches and what lane do they fit into and when joe flirted it is a single-lane highway and now it is a hov lane. >> i think he fits into his own lane. that is boxing people into -- the certain of categories and again the demographics in the country are changing. it is a new day. so -- >> is he progressive or middle of the road, centrist or left-leaning, what do you think. >> to that point, when we put labels on people, i do think it is a bit of a mistake and a disservice to voters because when you exit the beltway or the big apple and get out into the country and you just ask people how do you feel about these policies or feel about medicare

for all and about a $15 minimum wage and about free college education, people have a different take on that versus if you ask them how do you feel about democratic socialism? so i think it is -- we have to get away from doing that. it is fun fodder in the media to speak to each other for each other about each other but it seems to be out of the step with the fly-over countries and the rest of america when you just talk policy and i think once all of the candidates get out and just talk their policy, you see it resonate with certain people and you see that sometimes it doesn't always resonate but at least people know where you stand and not just what label you fall under. >> noah, in all of the polls he stands at the top of 27%. at one point bernie sanders was also at the top, before he got in the race. so whatp had as once joe gets in and he is formidable against republicans next year. >> he's extremely formidable, not just in his own primary but in november of 2020. i hesitate to speculate why because it is a very long process so a lot of things will happen between now and then. bernie sanders support has

demonstrated it self-to be pretty substantial and also consistent. it hasn't really budged too much. even though he's made quite a few enemies since he launched his campaign so i imagine his supporters are stable and i can't say the same for joe biden because he hasn't been in the race so we'll see. and to tiffany, lanes are a bad thing to think about in this sort of thing, they are flawed, but they do have value. joe biden's lane, if you could call it that, is establishment arian, he has support of the party infrastructure that existed in the obama era and obama people joining his team and the support of the financial networks and donor networks that supported barack to the extent that the democratic party is leaderless, there is no establishment claim but if anybody could claim that title, the hillary clinton title, it is joe biden. >> stand by because we'll continue on one of the other candidates in the race. mayor pete buttigieg last week, we were talking about him

launching his campaign. nbc news national reporter josh letterman joins us from plymouth, new hampshire, where the south bend mayor is on the campaign trail. josh? >> reporter: yeah, that is right, kendis, this rally held here in plymouth wrapped up just about an hour ago and 1200 people here and pete buttigieg all weekend is talking about the mueller report and reacting to it. he said it described a pattern of corruption by the president, behavior that he said bordersor impeachment proceedings the way that elizabeth warren has. but he said if congress were to go in that direction, there is clearly a lot of evidence to support impeachment. >> and josh, in the meantime, you're there on the ground in new hampshire. >> reporter: that is right. there is a lot of energy here for pete buttigieg here in new

hampshire. but he's also getting questions about a scandal that took place in -- in indiana in his home town over the firing early in his tenure of mayor of the police chief, a black police chief who was demoted after a situation where he had recorded some of his senior white officers allegedly using some racial language to refer to him. big "new york times" piece examining that closely. so i asked pete buttigieg yesterday for his reaction to that and here is what he said. >> it is a great example of how you learn some things the hard way and i laernd a lot about navigating the most sensitive issues that can come up in a diverse community like ours. and the tension that could exist over race and policing. at same time, i made a decision to demote the police chief because i found out from the fbi that he was a target of a criminal investigation and instead of finding out from him and that is not a decision i have second guessed.

>> reporter: and this is a good example of how an issue that was parochial, a situation in a small town, becomes a major national issue once you're running for president and surging into third place in some of the polls. something he's going to have to take questions from on the front page of the "new york times" and elsewhere if he's going to be a serious candidate. >> and there are many, of course, who are now calling for the mayor and the city of south bend to release that tape of the recordings of those officers. we'll see how that lawsuit plays out. josh lederman there in plymouth, new hampshire. and people are saying that is one of the tough parts for mayor pete buttigieg. he comes from a city of 100,000 and that is primarily white, i believe 57%. there are a lot of people saying that he's going to have -- to run in south carolina and run into this big black curtain tha african-american vote.

>> yeah, a legitimate enough to justify that response. this is a very strange story. so apparently mayor pete's prerogative is to demote this individual based on what he said, he didn't receive this information. this individual, t demoted police chief was under fbi investigation for allegedly taping his officers. he was demoted. he sued the city for discrimination and he won $50,000 and the four officers who were allegedly surveilled sued and they won and the same year $500,000 and the mayor pete said this issue was still in court and "the new york times" said -- he said this is still in court. that is not a he said/she said thing. either it is or not. that should be verifiable. so i struggle to draw a conclusion on this thing. the only conclusion i think i could draw is that south bend has terrible legal counsel. >> and with the legal counsel so far, it has cost the city i

believe, based on the south bend tribute reporting, some $2 million in fighting this case already. tiffany, weigh in on this. does he have an issue trying to get black voters and will this have any lasting effect, this controversy? >> yeah, of course he has an issue getting black voters and when you look at the rallies they are predominantly white and when you look at the issue, i want to be clear, it was the police chief before boykins who authorized taping of the officers and boykins, he knew about it and allowed it to continue. but he didn't initiate taping the officers and when the racist language used by the officers was uncovered, that is what created this issue. think about what was happening in 2012. this is on the heels of trayvon martin getting shot, the teenager in florida shot by george zimmerman and so when you look at race relations at that time and the way that mayor pete handled things at that time, an all lives matter guy and tried to walk it later, those are

challenges when you look at the larger scale. now what the staff looks like, that is a big question that people have that could inform you if you had a life where you didn't have to encounter these things. he did recently hire a black woman to do his rapid response so i'm curious how she's handling these kind of issues that come up for him. but even outside of this issue, when you look at issues in south bend, a huge economic equality gap there between the black residents when i believe make up 25% of the population with everybody else. and as a mayor, i know he's saying that he's learning, but look, we've got a guy right now who is first job in government is president of the united states and his lying on the job has been a tragedy for the country. noah and i can both probably agree on that. and so we don't bant to have somebody learn on the job again for the second time. so i'm not -- i don't have a dog in this fight at this point but i'm givingpy analysis but he has to do a much better job of reaching out to the african-american community. >> i'm sure he realized that and tries to address it in his book

and doesn't listen to the phone calls that indiana is a two consent state and who knows if they heard the phone calls if there is racist stuff on this. thank you both. and the winner is russia. they interfered in the 2016 presidential elections and set out to help donald trump win. what is being done to stop an attack on 2020. we also want to tell you that this weekend stay with us, with msnbc for liver coverage and analysis of the mueller report. crit matthews will be here for the two-hour special tonight starting at 6:00 p.m. eastern. at starting at 6:00 p.m. eastern. considering? the 2019 subaru outback is an iihs top safety pick plus. the honda cr-v is not. sorry, honda. which suv would make the best investment? the subaru outback has the best resale value in its class for 2019, according to kelley blue book. even better than the toyota rav4. sorry, toyota. it's easy to love a subaru.

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msnbc for liver coverage and msnbc for liver coverage and (so) (speaking in foreign language) i'm sorry i don't understand... ♪ help! i need somebody ♪ help! not just anybody ♪ help! you know i need someone no criminal conspiracy so was it friends with benefits between the trump campaign and the kremlin. the mueller report states collusion was not what it was looking for in the investigation. it said it baz looking for coordination or conspiracy between the trump administration and the kremlin but the ferms for the criminal offenses are

narrow as mueller report reads, we understood coordination to require an agreement tacit or expressed between the trump campaign and the russian government on election interference. that requires more than the two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to others actions or interest. but the report does suggest there was a muteure benefit between the two parties. the russian government perceived it would benefit from trump presidency and work to secure that outcome and the campaign, the campaign expected it would benefit electorally as well from information stolen and released through russian efforts. joining me now is former u.s. ambassador to russia, under president barack obama, and nbc international affairs analyst michael mcfaul. ambassador, we're lucky to have you here on this saturday. thank you. >> thanks for having me. >> so how do you narrow the terms in which mueller was looking for criminal conspiracy

compared to the behavior of the trump campaign? >> well, he was looking for the breaking of the law and he decided that there was not a criminal conspiracy. but that doesn't mean it was a good behavior or doesn't mean it was appropriate behavior. and i think that is very important distinction. i think it is wrong to reach out to a foreign government to try to get compromising material on your opponent. i think it is wrong to call for the foreign government to steal information as candidate trump did asking for them to find the stolen -- the alleged missing clinton emails. he was asking the foreign government of russia to do that and i think it is wrong to conduct business with a foreign government while you are running for president. so as we move forward to 2020, i would hope that we have new legislation or at least norms that provide greater transparency of all candidates for what their contacts are with foreign governments abroad, especially hostile ones like russia. >> and speaking of russia, were you kind of -- we did find out

from the mueller report that there were dozens more contacts between the trump campaign and trump officials and wikileaks and russian nationals. dozens more. what kind of alarm do you -- when you found out about that? >> you know, it is not and -- not answered in the mueller report why there were contacts. one explanation is just naivetiy on behalf of the trump team but realize the russians had a strategy here, right. they were seeking relationships with these people, trying to help them and that is crystal clear in the mueller report now. that is one thing we can lay to rest. we don't need to wonder whether they're trying to help trump or just so -- just sow division in our society and it is clear they were trying to help win. but they might have being trying to delegit mate people including the president and that is what i wish the republicans who defend

or just trump supporters who defend and say there is nothing there about the counter-factual. had there been no russian involvement whatsoever in 2016, and president trump won that election, he would be way better off today than with all of these weird connections with the russians and so i hope future candidates, including president trump, might think about whether it is wise to interact with foreign governments when they are running for president. i don't think it is. >> ambassador, in the meantime, there is a "new york times" op-ed that said there are a number of examples in which the president appears to be an unwitting asset for moscow. michael flynn agreed sangss would be reversed and applauding the putin lack of retaliation for those actions and pim pursuing the trump tower moscow project and he gives russia free

rein in syria and defended putin and people look at what the president has done and say this president is a russian asset. you say what? >> i'm not going to use that term. there is not evidence to prove that. that he is some kind of asset. most certainly he pursues policy that i believe are in russia's national interest and not in america's interest. and we should just debate those as policy debates and not describe him as somehow working for the kremlin. but there is no question, including the list that you just described, there is a reason why vladimir putin wanted president trump to win the election because those are all of the things he wanted to do and now we know he tried to help him win that election as well. >> but we do expect, though, that the president would primarily work in american interest rather than the russian interest, going back for much as we could remember i assume, ambassador? >> well, it is extraordinary. you have never had a disconnect between a president and his own

administration -- i want to underscore that. the trump administration as a sound policy toward russia, it is just the president that continues to disagree with it. and that is rather unprecedented. i can't think of another foreign policy issue in the time i've been involved with these kinds of foreign policy debates where you've had such a disconnect between the president and his own government. >> and that is quite telling there. former ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you so much. still ahead. the face of the new fixer. we're breaking down the bizarre behavior of attorney general william barr and why we wouldn't be surprised or shouldn't be surprised. be surirpsed.

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...and there's no looking back, because i am cured. talk to your doctor about mavyret. so the question, has president trump found his new political fixer in attorney general william barr? many people are wondering this. between barr's claims of fbi spying in a bizarre press conference before the mueller release, president trump may have gotten his wish. back with me, carol lamb and danny cevallos, carol, thank you, danny, thank you. before the presser, barr commented on how the president was feeling during the investigation, emotionally and otherwise. danny, how unusual is that to hear that from an attorney general? >> i thought it was an unwise choice of words for the president -- i mean, for the attorney general. he had to know that using those kinds of words, showing sympathy for the president when it really wasn't necessary, really what he should have done is let this report that he's about to

release speak for itself. it really set himself up for trouble because by showing that kind of sympathy and empathy for the president, everyone knew this report was coming out and they knew there was going to be all this really bad material in the report about the president. so i think it was some ill-advised commentary. i'm not prepared to call ag barr a fixer on the order of a michael cohen, those are two completely different, opposite universes. >> in terms of roy cohn, then. >> no. not a tom hagen, no. ag barr is ag barr. >> carol, as you know, during that press conference, ag barr seemingly exonerated the president as well of collusion, using the same terms the president used so many times when in fact the mueller report did not necessarily find it to be the case. so is the president in the clear out of all of this? >> no. here's the problem i have. anyone who has worked for the

department of justice for any length of time, and bill barr's worked for the department for many, many years, knows that the department is a very powerful institution, has a lot of power and authority, and it draws that legitimate power and authority by having credibility. he used the word "spying," that's not a legal term. barr knows that words are important, he understands that's not a legal term. i thought maybe he was just caught off-guard at the moment and he misspoke. but he doubled down at that press conference and he used the word "no collusion" four times, i think, when the mueller report itself, in the mueller report, the special counsel explicitly said we are not using the word "collusion," that's not a legal term, we're using the term "conspiracy," that is a legal term, there are elements to the crime of conspiracy and that is what we are using in our analysis.

so that press conference sounded like something that was not written by bill barr, it sounded like something that was written by the white house and it was a real disappointment to hear the kind of things he was saying. >> give us some context. for people who don't necessarily know from years of what attorney generals are, based on how bill barr has acted in the last few weeks, or last few months for that matter, he's acting like president trump's personal attorney general as opposed to how an attorney general should act, carol. >> you know, if you're a presidential appointee, there's always a question how much you are loyal to your job and how much you are loyal to the president. if you are in that position, you have to have an antenna for knowing when something is being asked of you that is so in conflict with your job that you're forced to choose between personal loyalty and loyalty to your job. you try to manage that the best you can. but if you can't manage that, you know what choice you have to

make. it is a disappointment here. i have to say that bill barr seems to go drawing the line somewhere way closer to the president than most attorneys general would do, frankly. i don't know why. >> the president long ago said he wanted his own roy cohn, i should mention my favorite quote from roy cohn, he says, "i don't know what the law is, i want to know who the judge is." it gives you a sense of what sort of folks the president has liked. carol lamb, danny cevallos, thank you all. ahead, my colleague richard lui will sit down with three members of congress. ers of cong.

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well, look at the time. that will do it for this hour of msnbc live. i'll be back bright and early tomorrow morning 8:00 a.m. eastern time on "up." you can follow me on twitter and instagram. for now i'm going to get some sleep. richard lui is here. >> get out the pillow. see you tomorrow morning, for a marathon sunday. good afternoon to all of you, i'm richard lui live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. this hour for you, to impeach or not to impeach. following the release of the redacted mueller report, a deepening division within the democratic party whether or not to impeach president trump. house democrats are gearing up to get more information out of that report. and the doj is already pushing